Discussion:
New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
(too old to reply)
Alexey Petrenko
2007-11-08 14:10:14 UTC
Permalink
Hey.

I'm working on Apache Harmony [1] which is J2SE implementation.

I want to suggest you to create Tomcat out of the box bundle on top of Harmony.
I've created such a bundle with the previous Harmony milestone release
[2]. It works but has areas for improvements... For example it's
possible to remove debug info from Harmony which is not needed in such
a bundle.

What do you think? Is such bundle interesting for Tomcat?

Thanks in advance.

SY, Alexey

[1] http://harmony.apache.org/
[2] http://harmony.apache.org/bundles.html
Yoav Shapira
2007-11-08 14:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Hey,
Post by Alexey Petrenko
I want to suggest you to create Tomcat out of the box bundle on top of Harmony.
I've created such a bundle with the previous Harmony milestone release
[2]. It works but has areas for improvements... For example it's
possible to remove debug info from Harmony which is not needed in such
a bundle.
What do you think? Is such bundle interesting for Tomcat?
Personally, I want to move the Tomcat downloads in a simpler
direction, removing options not adding them. So I'm not in favor of
various bundles and combinations.

Yoav
Costin Manolache
2007-11-08 15:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexey Petrenko
Hey,
Post by Alexey Petrenko
I want to suggest you to create Tomcat out of the box bundle on top of
Harmony.
Post by Alexey Petrenko
I've created such a bundle with the previous Harmony milestone release
[2]. It works but has areas for improvements... For example it's
possible to remove debug info from Harmony which is not needed in such
a bundle.
What do you think? Is such bundle interesting for Tomcat?
Personally, I want to move the Tomcat downloads in a simpler
direction, removing options not adding them. So I'm not in favor of
various bundles and combinations.
Yoav
On the other side - it may be a good thing to have a 'all apache java
software' bundle, or to bundle tomcat with harmony ( but on harmony side ).

I agree tomcat should go to less options and bundles.


Costin
Post by Alexey Petrenko
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Johnny Kewl
2007-11-09 10:53:10 UTC
Permalink
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
HARBOR: http://coolharbor.100free.com/index.htm
Now Tomcat is also a cool pojo application server
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Yoav Shapira" <***@apache.org>
To: "Tomcat Developers List" <***@tomcat.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
Post by Yoav Shapira
Hey,
Post by Alexey Petrenko
I want to suggest you to create Tomcat out of the box bundle on top of Harmony.
I've created such a bundle with the previous Harmony milestone release
[2]. It works but has areas for improvements... For example it's
possible to remove debug info from Harmony which is not needed in such
a bundle.
What do you think? Is such bundle interesting for Tomcat?
Personally, I want to move the Tomcat downloads in a simpler
direction, removing options not adding them. So I'm not in favor of
various bundles and combinations.
I agree, bundle TC as you will, but TC always needs to be independent.
I would like to see TC more modulerized, things like clustering been an
optional add on.
Again there are bundles, but there is also a tiny downlaod that will run a
servlet.
All optional technologies should be modulerized... I think.
Then in contrast to this... needed embedded technologies should be brought
out through a TC specific API.
For example things like base64 parsing, JMX for the servlet, XMLParsing like
that in the default servlet, should be an option in a users servlet. If its
intrinsic technology, dont waste it, bring it out as well.
... I think
Post by Yoav Shapira
Yoav
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Rossbach
2007-11-08 17:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Alexey,

I think it is a great idea to bundle harmony with tomcat. Ok, I also
agree with Yoav and Costin that bundle building and hosting is
harmony team job.
How can I help you to made the harmony/tomcat bundle ready? But I am
working at a Mac and I am very interested to get a java 6 up and
running:-(

Regards
Peter
Post by Alexey Petrenko
Hey.
I'm working on Apache Harmony [1] which is J2SE implementation.
I want to suggest you to create Tomcat out of the box bundle on top of Harmony.
I've created such a bundle with the previous Harmony milestone release
[2]. It works but has areas for improvements... For example it's
possible to remove debug info from Harmony which is not needed in such
a bundle.
What do you think? Is such bundle interesting for Tomcat?
Thanks in advance.
SY, Alexey
[1] http://harmony.apache.org/
[2] http://harmony.apache.org/bundles.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Preston L. Bannister
2007-11-08 18:28:38 UTC
Permalink
Yes, any such bundle should be under Harmony, not Tomcat.

Speaking as an application developer, the (outside?) chance that a customer
could go to download Tomcat, and end up with Harmony - this does not make me
happy. At least until I have a *lot* more confidence in Harmony. Tomcat is
expected to be mature and reliable.
Henri Gomez
2007-11-08 20:59:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Preston L. Bannister
Yes, any such bundle should be under Harmony, not Tomcat.
Why not Tomcat ?
Post by Preston L. Bannister
Speaking as an application developer, the (outside?) chance that a customer
could go to download Tomcat, and end up with Harmony - this does not make me
happy. At least until I have a *lot* more confidence in Harmony. Tomcat is
expected to be mature and reliable.
If you're confident in Tomcat ,so a 'bundled' Harmoy/Tomcat will help
Harmony team fix failures in the Java Runtime you could detect.

BTW, Harmony people, may I suggest you be to contact the JPackage team
(www.jpackage.org).

They bundle in RPM format major Java applications for Linux boxes and
having an OSS JRE/JDK like Harmony will be very usefull to them.

Regards and long life to Harmony and others Java Opened implementations :)
Preston L. Bannister
2007-11-08 22:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henri Gomez
Post by Preston L. Bannister
Yes, any such bundle should be under Harmony, not Tomcat.
Why not Tomcat ?
If you are looking at Harmony, you are (or should be) expecting something
experimental.
Post by Henri Gomez
Speaking as an application developer, the (outside?) chance that a customer
Post by Preston L. Bannister
could go to download Tomcat, and end up with Harmony - this does not
make me
Post by Preston L. Bannister
happy. At least until I have a *lot* more confidence in Harmony.
Tomcat is
Post by Preston L. Bannister
expected to be mature and reliable.
If you're confident in Tomcat ,so a 'bundled' Harmoy/Tomcat will help
Harmony team fix failures in the Java Runtime you could detect.
Sadly, I have no interest in testing Harmony. Thanks for the offer, but my
plate is already far too full. Nor am I interested in my customers testing
Harmony, for pretty much the same reason.

Pragmatically, as a web application developer, the Sun JVM is free for my
customers, which eliminates any interest (aside from theoretical) in
non-Sun, maybe-sorta-kinda-mostly working, and non-performant JVMs. Sun is
doing a good job, looks to continue to do so, and seems generally to have a
clue about not screwing customers. Good enough.

Flip this around - who *does* have a pragmatic interest in testing and
development of an open-source JVM? That should suggest a venue.
Alexey Petrenko
2007-11-13 10:07:54 UTC
Permalink
I understand your skepticism, Preston. To be honest it is very common
to be skeptical about Harmony.

And I agree that Harmony can not guarantee yet the level of stability
of old-mature-well-known-everybody-using-and-so-on JREs and beat them
in every aspect of performance. That's true.
We got a usual circle here: not mature enough - do not have customers,
do not have customers - can not be mature enough.

But from other hand Harmony has good and continuous progress and it
can provide unique benefits to it's customers even now. Just few
things right out of my head:
1. Apache License. We are all the part of ASF and I believe that
nobody doubts that ALv2 is a benefit for customers :)
2. Modularity - you can remove modules which are unneeded for your
application and reduce the size of bundle. For example javax.swing is
huge package and it's almost always not needed for server side
applications. Or you can choose your favorite GC.
3. Multiple VMs
4. Open source - usual benefits of open source software. You can debug
your application better and so on.
5. Community support - required fixes, improvements and so on.

Speaking of Harmony stability... We have rather big list of
applications which are working with Harmony including Eclipse,
EIOffice, JIRA, jEdit and so on. I do not remember all the
applications tested on Harmony but you can find more detailed list on
Harmony wiki [1]. Tomcat was one of the first application we've
enabled on Harmony and it look pretty well on it.
Performance... We are working on it and Harmony shows comparable
results on number of benchmarks. Yes, some benchmarks shows
significantly lower performance but you can not create production
quality JRE in one day :)

So that was pragmatical, user caring things.
However we also have ASF related things... Since we are all in ASF...
I believe you all knows about the issues with getting J2SE TCK for
Harmony and Apache has hard talks on this. Wider adoption of Harmony
will give ASF additional arguments in this talks. And the result of
this talks is important for all Java related open source community.

And the last is community thing... Yes! We need support from our Big
ASF Brother! :)

Actually we do not need too much support. Bundle creation support,
link to the bundle from Tomcat site and some free-time testing/bug
filing/areas for improvement suggestion would be enough :)

Thanks in advance.

SY, Alexey

1. http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/Application_Status
Post by Preston L. Bannister
Post by Henri Gomez
Post by Preston L. Bannister
Yes, any such bundle should be under Harmony, not Tomcat.
Why not Tomcat ?
If you are looking at Harmony, you are (or should be) expecting something
experimental.
Post by Henri Gomez
Speaking as an application developer, the (outside?) chance that a customer
Post by Preston L. Bannister
could go to download Tomcat, and end up with Harmony - this does not
make me
Post by Preston L. Bannister
happy. At least until I have a *lot* more confidence in Harmony.
Tomcat is
Post by Preston L. Bannister
expected to be mature and reliable.
If you're confident in Tomcat ,so a 'bundled' Harmoy/Tomcat will help
Harmony team fix failures in the Java Runtime you could detect.
Sadly, I have no interest in testing Harmony. Thanks for the offer, but my
plate is already far too full. Nor am I interested in my customers testing
Harmony, for pretty much the same reason.
Pragmatically, as a web application developer, the Sun JVM is free for my
customers, which eliminates any interest (aside from theoretical) in
non-Sun, maybe-sorta-kinda-mostly working, and non-performant JVMs. Sun is
doing a good job, looks to continue to do so, and seems generally to have a
clue about not screwing customers. Good enough.
Flip this around - who *does* have a pragmatic interest in testing and
development of an open-source JVM? That should suggest a venue.
Henri Gomez
2007-11-13 10:10:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexey Petrenko
And the last is community thing... Yes! We need support from our Big
ASF Brother! :)
+1
Yoav Shapira
2007-11-13 12:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Yo,
Post by Alexey Petrenko
Speaking of Harmony stability... We have rather big list of
applications which are working with Harmony including Eclipse,
To be clear: I have no doubt of Harmony's quality and stability. I've
used it, it's great.

I want to keep our end-user experience as simple and friendly as
possible, and our release management as simple and easy for us as
possible too. That's why I don't want another bundle.

If someone else were to build and maintain a Tomcat + Harmony
download, I have no issue linking to that from our download pages.
That's an explicit endorsement. But that's where I (again, just me
personally) would like to draw the line of separation.

Yoav
Alexey Petrenko
2007-11-13 22:12:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yoav Shapira
Yo,
Post by Alexey Petrenko
Speaking of Harmony stability... We have rather big list of
applications which are working with Harmony including Eclipse,
To be clear: I have no doubt of Harmony's quality and stability. I've
used it, it's great.
I want to keep our end-user experience as simple and friendly as
possible, and our release management as simple and easy for us as
possible too. That's why I don't want another bundle.
If someone else were to build and maintain a Tomcat + Harmony
download
I understand that such a bundle is mostly interested for Harmony not
for Tomcat :)
Post by Yoav Shapira
I have no issue linking to that from our download pages.
That's an explicit endorsement. But that's where I (again, just me
personally) would like to draw the line of separation.
Yoav
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Henri Gomez
2007-11-14 08:19:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexey Petrenko
Post by Yoav Shapira
If someone else were to build and maintain a Tomcat + Harmony
download
I understand that such a bundle is mostly interested for Harmony not
for Tomcat :)
The good idea could be to package Harmony with major ASF projects,
like Tomcat, Geronimo, Ant, Axis/CXF.

A sort of ASF goodies ready to use.

We could see it in Fedora 8 Release with IcedTea and it's more a
packaging activity than pure developpment.

So I suggest you to see how Harmony could fit with leading Linux
distributions (Suse, RH/Fedora/Ubuntu) and help them package it in
their distro. May be with jpackage, may be directly with distributions
(you could start to make RPM/DEB packages available for these
distros).

For the Windows land, it's another story.

Regards
Alexey Petrenko
2007-11-14 09:12:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henri Gomez
Post by Alexey Petrenko
Post by Yoav Shapira
If someone else were to build and maintain a Tomcat + Harmony
download
I understand that such a bundle is mostly interested for Harmony not
for Tomcat :)
The good idea could be to package Harmony with major ASF projects,
like Tomcat, Geronimo, Ant, Axis/CXF.
A sort of ASF goodies ready to use.
Yes, this is the target!
Post by Henri Gomez
We could see it in Fedora 8 Release with IcedTea and it's more a
packaging activity than pure developpment.
So I suggest you to see how Harmony could fit with leading Linux
distributions (Suse, RH/Fedora/Ubuntu) and help them package it in
their distro. May be with jpackage, may be directly with distributions
(you could start to make RPM/DEB packages available for these
distros).
Yep, we are working on such packages.
Post by Henri Gomez
For the Windows land, it's another story.
:)

SY, Alexey

Alexey Petrenko
2007-11-09 08:54:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henri Gomez
Post by Preston L. Bannister
Yes, any such bundle should be under Harmony, not Tomcat.
Why not Tomcat ?
Post by Preston L. Bannister
Speaking as an application developer, the (outside?) chance that a customer
could go to download Tomcat, and end up with Harmony - this does not make me
happy. At least until I have a *lot* more confidence in Harmony. Tomcat is
expected to be mature and reliable.
If you're confident in Tomcat ,so a 'bundled' Harmoy/Tomcat will help
Harmony team fix failures in the Java Runtime you could detect.
BTW, Harmony people, may I suggest you be to contact the JPackage team
(www.jpackage.org).
Thanks for pointing to this project, Henri.

SY, Alexey
Post by Henri Gomez
They bundle in RPM format major Java applications for Linux boxes and
having an OSS JRE/JDK like Harmony will be very usefull to them.
Regards and long life to Harmony and others Java Opened implementations :)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Henri Gomez
2007-11-09 10:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexey Petrenko
Post by Henri Gomez
BTW, Harmony people, may I suggest you be to contact the JPackage team
(www.jpackage.org).
Thanks for pointing to this project, Henri.
No problem and happy to help.

I was involved in Jpackage some times ago (member and co-founder)

Cheers
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